Yea...
The latest post on the Retribution Forums expounding the glory of eVyors with Scyir's left me wanting to have a few things to say. I swiftly realized that I would be hijacking some poor misguided fools thread and filling it with my own opinions and negativity. I decided to do it here in stead where such thoughts belong.
So I have been doing some theory machine and tests on the Scyir. I personally do not like them with eVyros at all. I do think it has a place however.
Scyris are little battle field bad asses, They are Dawnguard who have served for the longest time with distinction and honor. I like to think of them as Judges from Judge Dredd. The good movie not the camp one.
I broke it down like this.
If I want to jack Marshall something for a free re roll what do I want to Marshall for a good point investment that can sit outside of a battle group with no penalty.
Jack marshaling compared to battle group:
Rahn, Force blast... I want that
Kaelyssa, Witch Hound... not happy to loose that
Ravyn, works.
Ossyan, Potential we hardly want chronomancer on a light ever.
pVyros, Loose the feat and mobility, not worth it.
eVyros, loose synergy not worth it.
Garyth, works.
Options for the Jack Marshal:
Gorgon, lets not and never think of this again. Bad gun, a re roll on the combo smite is still not a good investment. 7 points too much
Griffon, Works. Reach light good for flanking. Pow 13 pretty independent, needs a re roll? with a free mat 8 charge not really. 6 points good.
Chimera, duh. Mirage can give some tricky movement shenanigans but yea. no.
Aspis, Good. A tough little jack that can shield guard whether its in a battle group or not. With a free focus and a re roll it can chew through easy to hit stuff and can be used to move things around in zones with beat back. Being able to shield guard the Scyir ups his survivability also.
So then I looked at the reason I wanted Scyirs in the first place CMD 10. Lots of my stuff fails command checks, particularly the solos and the house guard. I didn't want to invest the 4 points in a thane in every list especially when they are racing up the sides flanking.
Dawngaurd are CMD 10 with the UA and almost always come with their UA's so the Scyirs CMD was kind of wasted. But they get Teamwork or whatever it is which gives them their own personal version of Marshal Discipline.
= Useless CMD but can move through other dawnguard I'll give that a 4/5
House Guard, they can really benefit from this CMD bonus hanging around but he doesn't get to move through them with him or his Jack. Despite this the Marshal Discipline is a bit secondary to being able to keep your troops in a fight.
= CMD good but no MD. 4/5
Solos, nearly all of our solos benefit from the CMD bonus being around and near the center of our force and not on some flank. Ok now we are talking, nearly all of our casters, or more specifically the ones who can take a Scyir and even use it to marshal will benefit from its higher CMD stat.
Whittling down the synergies
Ok so we have a Scyir and either a Griffon or an Aspis. I started to pick apart who really benefits from the combinations out of the three casters I would consider.
Assassination/support potential
The Griffon can be an accurate mat 8 p+s 13, 15 with concentrated power main hand attack. Probably wont kill a caster by its self, if you can deliver it anyway.
Doing some really basic maths your looking at a 13+ average 9 (on charge) follows up by a 9 + average 7 damage
13+9+9+7 = 38 damage before armor.
A power 13 will cut down most any infantry but a power 9 with no reach can be shunted off by things like Thralls, Errants and otehr arm 16 or defensive line infantry.
The Aspis comes in with 2 power 11 attacks, 13 with concentrated power.
13+9+13+7 = 42
Power 11/13 will more reliably kill low defence higher armored infantry, you do however loose the reach weapon but beat back helps get around this.
It looses the +2 mat on a charge but you still have the re roll if you drive it, swee as. It can shield guard, this is pretty awesome. While it doesn't have the same armor as the Griffon it boasts a Pheonix Field, so its free d6 shield regeneration and extra 4 boxes is a pretty big deal.
Its not an assassination piece either, but with beat back its arguably an assassination and scenario tool.
Ravyn:
Griffon. I want to run Invictors with Ravyn so there is a nice flank option. Her spell list is mostly worthless however apart from Locomotion which it wont get. 2/5
Aspis. A shield guard is always good. Using beat back to move things around is also always good. Still doesn't benefit from feat or snipe or spell list in general 3/5
Ossyan:
See Ravyn, replace the words snipe and locomation with chronomancer.
Garyth
Griffon. You could give it Mirage, pretty pants on a Griffon really.
Aspis. Gareth hates getting shot, sure he has stealth but just in case, shield guard. Re roll misses through death sentence on a jack with beat back can be great for clearing light infantry.Using the beat back to move things closer to Garyth is kind of what Garyth is all about.
The conclusion?
Garyth with an Aspis, maybe 2 Aspides and both Jack Marshalled. So I tried it, and it seemed ok.
I ran by way of typical Garyth for me Dahlia Hallyr and Skarath + a unit of Sentinels. The marshal discipline was nice for moving through in unexpected charge lanes and pushing things away from my sentinels so they were un engaged and could re charge or move to new targets was nice. The unseen non linear bonus to Garyths threat via beat back was also nice.
I got into thinking about the list more and realized dropping Skaraths Riposte animus on the Scyirs would make them rather un desirable targets for enemy infantry (def 15 mat 10 p+s12 flankers) and think I will try the combination out some more.
The bad stuff
So far I only see a reason to run this with Garyth, who is pretty much terrible. I think there is still value in taking one or 2 in a general list in place of MHA's because they are more survivable, offer a CMD buff for your army and are more reliable in damage output. If you are not jack marshaling them then they may have more of a solid placing in most armies than some of the other solos.
Therefore my solo selection goes something in this order.
Arcanist
Artificer
Characters
Magister
Scyir
Mage Hunter Assassin
Destor Thane
Ghost Sniper
If I left any out its obviously because I don't use them or refuse to admit they exist. Apart from the soulless attachment who has a selection process all of its own
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